If you are in business and accept money for martial arts lessons then you are a McDojo. After all, you are taking money in exchange for teaching the martial arts and, as a for profit business, you are putting profits ahead of the art(s) you teach.
Okay, I lied. I don’t honestly believe that all professional martial arts schools are McDojos. However, there are many that are very McDojoish. And, yes, there are many in our midst who are indeed certified McDojos.
Thank you Seth Godin for the idea on the name of this post.
In case you haven’t heard yet, a McDojo is basically a rather negative term the martial arts industry uses to label a martial arts school owner’s perceived unsavory business practices.
What is a McDojo?
To many, the three primary components of a McDojo include:
- When a martial arts school owner cares more about profit than teaching a quality martial art.
- A martial arts school owner waters down their art to make it easier to sell to the masses.
- Deliberately gives students a false sense of security and improperly equips them for real life encounters.
Others look towards these business practices to determine if a martial arts school is a McDojo (or isn’t):
- Requires a large down payment.
- Large dollar cash outs are required when a student quits.
- Is located in (or near) a strip mall.
- There is little to no contact between students (aka “air karate”).
- Students wear “flashy” uniforms and patches.
- Focuses on teaching kids instead of adults.
- Offers a black belt club or masters club.
- Gives black belts to children.
- Offers after school programs or summer camps.
- Offers a supplemental cardio program.
- The owner/head instructor rarely, if ever, teaches.
- Multiple belts and tips to black belt; all with belt testing fees.
- Is part of a franchise.
- Mandatory equipment purchases for belt advancement.
- Students are not allowed to cross train at other dojos.
- Legally binding contracts are used.
- Utilizes a billing/collections company.
- The chief instructor holds multiple black belts in multiple arts or has fake or exaggerated credentials.
There are a ton of martial arts schools that have many, if not all, of these as part of their business practices. But does that really make them a McDojo?
Obviously, if you’re going into business, martial arts or otherwise, you have to worry about paying the bills, keeping the doors open, and making enough to earn a living. Being for profit isn’t in and of itself isn’t a bad thing… right?
Where do you draw the line? Share you thoughts in the form of a comment below!
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Being a “for profit” school is not necessarily a bad thing; so long as you remain true to your students/customers. So long as everything that you advertise or offer is legitimate, I think that you are pretty safe from becoming a McDojo. Although your list of McDojo indicators does apply to many McDojo, there are many legitimate schools that use the same strategies, and are not McDojos. I think that it matters greatly how the instructor or staff view there clientel; do they view them as students or as customers?
Lane, thanks for the great comment.
Given intent is sometimes difficult to discern, how can we know the difference between a greedy McDojo and a martial arts school who is just trying to run a business?
Anyone have any ideas?
Get a wet paper sack and put there instructor of the questionable “McDojo” school in it. See if he can kick his way out of it……
The whole concept of “McDojo” is mostly used by guys who can’t make a living run a school to give themselves an excuse for their embarrassing results.
While it’s a relatively new way of denigrating professional schools (in my days in Washington D.C. with the Jhoon Rhee Institute we were referred to as a “Belt Factory” by the guys who couldn’t figure out how to make a living.)
Regarding points #1,#2,#3.
“Steven Covey” in 7-Habits says:
“No Margin-No Mission.”
It’s imperative for any and every school operating to make a profit in order to stay in business.
That being said to be successful long-term ANY business must provide REAL long-term value in exchange for the money. If they don’t teach high quality martial arts, create excellent students, and follow-through on promises made then in almost all cases they will be found out and will eventually go out of business.
As for the other list of items.
It was obviously created by someone who has no idea of how to run a professional school and how to maintain students long-term and create excellent results.
Quality business operations are not at odds with quality curriculum and excellent student results.
Our industry does have several problems:
1. “self-promoted” people proclaiming themselves as experts.
2. Athletes with little teaching skill or business skills deciding to operate a business that teaches martial arts.
Stephen Oliver, MBA
8th Degree Black Belt
CEO – National Association of Professional Martial Artists
Mr. Oliver,
I’m one of those guys that can’t make a living running a school, at lease not yet. Oh, sure I have made money in the past when I managed a school for a multi school owner but had to quit when the students started taking a back seat to profits. I swore I would not do that with my school.
I looked at successes like Ms. Kathy Owen of Newark DE who produces top notched student with solid skills and great attitudes. Ms. Owen has a very successful school and did it while preserving her integrity as a martial artist.
I started teaching and have slowly grown my school into a nice new facility that pays the bills. No, I can’t quit day time job but I sleep good at night knowing I doing right by my students. I also enjoy getting discontented black belts from the “Mcdojos”, “Belt Factories” and “Take Ones Doughs” in my area because, even though they have to start all over, these are the students that appreciate what we do the most.
Thank you Mr. Wheaton for you integrity and your excellent blog with advice for those of us that understand the meaning of Bushido and believe that teaching martial arts is more that making a buck.
Mike Guercio
Chief Instructor / Owner
Carroll County Kenpo Karate
Thank you Mr. Wheaton for this article and this website.
I have heard the term McDojo since I started my training back in the 1980′s, and at one time was even used to unfairly label my Instructor and his Dojang (despite a VERY high level of quality in facilities, instruction and output).
Making a profit is important to keeping the doors open, bills paid, and the school running. In fact, there’s a bit of false notion that in Martial Arts, unlike any other industry, you must run your business with a ZERO BALANCE at year end in order to be deemed respectable (i.e. be a nonprofit organization). There is no law nor rule which states one must operate a business nad NOT turn a profit.
However (and I direct this question to Master Oliver), is it wrong to put Martial Arts first, and Business second (albeit a close second)? I can attest to having met and trained with many school owners who make decisions with their wallet’s best-of-interest in mind, rather than their students (their clients). They have shared their business strategies which, in my humble opinion, subjugate the very values of INTEGRITY and HUMILITY we teach and bestow unto our pupils. In short: they do not practice what they preach.
On the flip side, I think an important aspect to touch on is that those who do operate a school to make a living are apt to have more drive to offer better quality instruction. Not because they have the money to do it, but because their living depends on it. If someone questions my profitability, I explain that because this is my living, I will make sure this school will be here 5 or 10 or 20 years from now.
The one piece of business advice I have learned which I still value to this day: You sit at a desk with two drawers; one drawer has your checkbook, the other has your bills. Before making any big decision about your business, you stand up, take off your belt and place it on your chair, walk to the other side of the desk and have a seat -make the decision from there.
James Garlin
President / Head Instructor
Northeast Martial Arts Center
James, thank you for the comment! My advice is to always put existing students first, then profit, and go about building and structuring your martial arts school ethically, passionately, intelligently, with integrity, and great humility. Great advice at the end of your comment, by the way. Well said!
Stephen, thank you for joining the conversation.
The big challenge is convincing the skeptical altruistic martial arts school owners that quality and profits can coexist and was the underlying point of this article. I really believe you can have both and sounds like we’re basically on the same page in this regard.
To me, what makes a McDojo isn’t really about the list I mentioned (thank you Wikipedia), but rather, the motivation behind it all. As an aside, I believe a lot of the things on that list can be good business practices and can help many martial arts schools become more profitable.
Further, I agree it comes down to providing value. The problem as I see it is there are many who put profit ahead of value and sometimes replace value with profit.
One of the easiest ways to make more profit is to charge more. With higher prices comes the perception of higher value. However, high value really has to be delivered in order for this to work.
In this way, there is an implied promise being made.
And, to me, it’s always up to the customer to define value. Not us. When we don’t match their personally defined expectation, we haven’t lived up to our end of the bargain. At this point, a student should be let out of their contract, if one exists.
However, many in our industry use this as an opportunity to enforce the contract and squeeze thousands of dollars out of students who want to quit because their martial arts school didn’t provide them with real value, perceived or otherwise.
Sticking it to an unsatisfied customer makes me cringe and isn’t good business. In this case, profits are clearly ahead of value and legal contracts are used to ensure profit even when value isn’t being delivered. The scoundrels who do this are the true scourge of our industry, if you ask me, and can without a doubt be properly labeled a McDojo.
Don’t misunderstand, I do think contracts can be wise for both parties but not in place of providing real value to the student. I just use this as an example as part of how I personally define a McDojo.
Where do you stand on this? I’d be interested to hear your perspective.
Hi Ryan,
I agree, good business should always be practiced first. We offer both on-going (30-days notice) and contracts. This way our students can choose which one they would rather have, although we do offer a discount with our contracts. We have on more than one occasion, let students out of contracts due to circumstances, and we will continue to do this, it is just sound business.
It can be very frustrating though, when you have done everything you can and they still are 2-3 months behind on tuition and have been attending classes during that time.
We received our first negative review today and were accused of being a “McDojo” on our google maps. It is very frustrating as we have been teaching since 2008 and have not ranked a single student to Black Belt. We do not believe in giving black belts to children, period. We tell everyone that decides to start training at our school, that it will take several years before they are even ready to grade for black belt. I hope that doesn’t make me sound like a McDojo, but we believe that quality of instruction should be above all else.
Our dojo also pays its own bills and provides a living for our family. So we do have to look at our profits and make sure that we are not operating in the red so to speak. I do not believe this makes us a McDojo, it makes us business oriented. We believe that every student that comes through our doors are very important, in fact we have hosted events to help raise money for the American Red Cross and every year we raise money to donate to the Angel Tree for Christmas.
Does this make us a McDojo, no, it does not. We are giving back to our community and offer: free bully defense classes, free kid safe seminars, and free adult self defense workshops. If people are interested after they have participated in a seminar than that is great
We would not be able to do this if we were not a business that was making a profit. We are donating our time, and skills by hosting these events for free.
This is where we stand, I hope everyone can see that
I think the real problem here is the fact that most BlackBelts who teach realize in their minds that Martial art training is only worth so much. They fail to see how teaching others to be leaders in the world and to grow and to evolve their space in the world is worth alot more then just martial arts. The bigger dojo teaches Personal Development so the student can excel. Lets face it most martial art training is only as valuable as the chance to use it. We as people get the chance to use our minds every day in real mental self defense. So mental self- defense is worth alot more than physical self-defense. Charging for both means more cost,but the student will recieve a million times fold what they paid. I have a school in vegas with 500 students and they all pay towards 300.00 a month and think they are getting a great deal because they have already made their investment back in diamonds. If you feel your school is not worth the price you are in a battle of the mind and you are losing.
I agree completely with Brady Cameron, that personal development that is gained through martial arts is much more valuable than the physical training.
I am a black belt in the art of To Shin Do. I train at Tampa Quest Martial Arts. The “life skills” and personal development I have gained through my training has made the monetary investment more than worth it. My training is not cheap, but I truly believe that I am getting the value for my dollar.
I am completing my MFA Thesis research on methods of effectively marketing the intangible qualities of a dojo, such as the personal development aspects that are gained through the training. I am also developing a new website for the school that will market these “intangible qualities” and, hopefully, distinguish the school from the McDojos.
Does anyone have an opinions on how to best market this aspect of martial arts training? Your feedback is greatly appreciated.
I disagree that focusing on children makes one a McDojo. We teach all kids, some that no one will touch. Kids with AD/HD, with physical limitations, behavior problems, you name it. We take kids in so we can affect them positively in our community to be peace makers and leaders. We have adults, and would like more, but we are 90% kids and teens and I love every minute of every class.
I agree with Brady and several of the others here.
On the other hand, I often struggle with my own conscience about my possible legitimate qualification as a McDojo or, as Marc McYoung calls it, a “pirate”.
I began training in “taekwondo” when I was 4, and have known Mr. Oliver above (Jhoon Rhee Institute early 80′s) and had several teachers who are considered greats in the sport. But, especially since the legitimacy of non-full contact TKD is often disputed by practitioners of Olympic style TKD – I find it hard to even label what I teach.
Is it light/semi-contact kick boxing? “American” TKD?
As it seems, this is one thing that has fueled the whole McDojo debate. Since there is no worldwide body governing this style of martial art, it is: a) an easy target for criticism and b) full of people with questionable qualifications (sometimes by no fault of their own).
At this point in my career, I am tending to embrace the idea of McDojo or “martial arts light”, and market my lessons as such.
Mr Stafford, I’m afraid I have to disagree with you on many points here, although this may be becuase I am not an American.
In the UK (Where I live) what you call “non-olympic” TKD, i.e. the original, traditional kind is by far the most popular form of the art, thanks to it’s introduction by GM Rhee Ki Ha in the 1960′s here. Also we have very few “McDojo’s” here as there are very few professional Martial Arts instuctors. I myself teach for pleasure and purpose, and while I make a profit, everything I make from the Martial Arts, goes straight back into the Martial arts. Not a single penny touches my personal bank account, thats what the day job is for.
It’s not hard at all to label “non-olympic” TKD, it is either “ITF Style Taekwondo” or “Chang-hong” style Taekwondo. The traditional style created by General Choi Hong Hi, there is no such thing as “American TKD”.
Anyone who practices WTF (Olympic) Taekwondo and refutes the legitimacy of ITF (Traditional) Taekwondo is a fool and needs to learn their history properly.
As for there being no world body for traditional Taekwondo, check out http://www.itf-administration.com for the world governing body for ITF Taekwondo. Master Robert Wheatley will be the US contact.
For more information on the subject, I reccomend the book “A Killing Art” by Alex Gillis. Fantastic book.
Yours in Taekwondo.
Ben England, Instructor, Evesham Taekwondo; 3rd Dan.
Sorry to disagree that there is no such thing as American TKD. In the US, there has long been an eclectic mix of styles and techniques taught under the label of TKD. Very few schools are affiliated with the ITF, even if they practice the Hyungs for example. Your point of view is very Euro-centric, I’m afraid.
3 Tests I have used in real-life to see if a school is true McDojo:
1. Answer an ad and go to a job interview to be an instructor.
I had a school tells me during a job interview to teach Kung-Fu (my background, as is written on my resume, is karate, Muay Thai, and BJJ) that all I have to do is “voluteer” as an “assistant instructor” for six months and then after this “probationary period” the school owner would make me a “full-instructor.”
2. Observe a class for an hour at a chain run by a “well-known Grandmaster”.
And spend 45 minutes in the office of the assistant instructor filing out a “enrollement questionaire” and watching a dvd of their style as demonstrated by their professional “national demonstration team”, but only spending 15 minutes actually watching a class (which consisted of mostly stiff katas and long periods of “meditation”).
3. Send an email requesting more information on “Secret World War 2 Unarmed Combat Tactics”.
And receive a cd in the mail of an mp3 of a “top secret former military operative” rambling on and on about how all other systems are ineffective (except his, of course), how its “easy to learn”, and how his techniques are so deadly that they have “just been recently ‘declassified’ by the government”.
I also got a 5 page “fact sheet” “only available to law enforcement..until now” of paragraph after paragraph of fear-based,’us’ vs. ‘them’ rhetoric around topics ranging from home invasion robbery to the 9/11 attacks.
I saw an ad for “safe, effective, touch-less” karate system. I am not sure, but I would think that if you are teaching effective martial arts, some actual touching needs to occur. As a teacher, this ad hit me as particularly hokey and possibly a McDojo.
In our area, we have schools that pop up and disappear on a regular basis. Slightly north of us, there are a lot of schools whose focus in every class is driving the student towards tournaments. They have banded together and formed their own tournament league and promote the tournament league in every class.
I just think that there is so much out there that all I can do is what I know and do it effectively and professionally to the best of my ability.
Greetings. I am a 5th degree tae-kwon-do black belt and just plain tired of hearing all the negative comments about tae-kwon-do schools being mcdojangs !
What i see is that the people making the comments are mcblack -belts , what is the core of any martial arts ,respect which the mcblack belt show a lack of .
Go back to your training years, where did you train ? My sa bu nims dojang was on the back of a warehouse with cement floors, no air conditioning, no heater.
Way back when the true masters would train their students in their private training halls by invitation only . The students would pay through manual labor or offerings .
True there are several schools that are profit oriented teaching watered down curriculum but don’t judge all by ones association.
I hear a lot of denial in these posts. I’m sorry but once you inject money into the equation the true spirit of the martial art is lost. You can rationalize it all you want. But the martial art as a “profession” is absurd and down right deceitful. A true master teaches a student the art because he wants to with minimal compensation. Period. Paragraph. Furthermore, that compensation is really nothing more than the representation of a students will to learn. This does not apply to the average person duped into signing up for or staying in a school that is for profit at any level.
The motivation for the teacher is teaching, and not doing it as just a vocation or even avocation.
How this relates to the realities today is a true conundrum. Again, I regard the true spirit of the martial arts is lost.
I think these so called traditional Martial Artist need to get over their inferior sense of self worth. I hate to be the one that sounds rude here but, enough is enough already. The mental game that you so called tradionalist are playing is called tranceference. Shifting your inabilities to another is the hallmark calling card of no confidence. Your Martial art was created by another guy. Yes, a guy or guys devised the art you study and laid the foundation for what you teach and how! The fact that you chose to practice and teach your art as it was way back when, is your choice. But, if others chose to update and to find ways to benifit their students to a greater degree then they should be allowed to do so without riducule. If you chose to stay locked within your teachers beliefs and not expand and grow from there then this is your decison. Stay locked within your cult. But, dont blame the other BlackBelts with successful schools…because you could not get pass your own beliefs and let go and grow yourself. Remember we are here to expand our students mind and open their lives to new possibilites. We cant do this if we can not get out of our own way.Let go of the past it serves only a reference for the things you want to judge in the now. The now is all that matters. Dont believe me? try to raise your hand in the past or the future. You cannot do it! you can only raise your hand in the now, because that is all that is important. Release the past, and embrace the now, and build a brighter future.
Marketing is simply opportunistic psychology to sell a business. It is fundamentally deceitful and embellishing by nature. It’s required to compete as a business. It also hides behind technicality. It’s not technically deceitful, it’s not technically misleading, it’s so well practiced that the civilian has little hope of determining the sincerity without going through the program. The consumer has to be trained not to fall for these things, it isn’t just buyer beware. With eleven years of MA experience I’m still wet behind the ears and can still get sucked into pretty pictures and words but I believe martial arts is about overcoming self-imposed strife to become stronger in the areas you train. I believe when you soften that you can’t help but soften the bottom line. It’s supposed to be hard, not everyone can do it and money makes demands ethics can’t satisfy, eventually.
i disagree with mr oliver’s comment for a couple reasons,
1. not every mcdojo will go out of business because there martial arts is bad. schools go out of business because they enrollments not enough to pay bills. period. good schools and bad schools have good anrollment, and good schools and bad schools have low enrollment. its a matter of do you know how to market your school, do you know how to talk to new students, is your school good and attractive to the new students, and did you attract the right people to the kind of school you are.
2. not every broke martial arts teacher is angry at the mcdojo. sometimes, they call a school a mcdojo, when that school IS a mcdojo. its not always jealousy. sometimes it really is just disgusting to look at.
3. i know owners of mcdojos in my city (sacramento) who say in the magazines, i make money, i make money, i make money… but my students are learning quality martial arts. the truth is, yes, you make money, yes you make money, yes you make money, but your martial arts is still garbage. martial arts teachers talk more about what is important to them, than the side stuff they mention, only… like, oh, we have good martial arts too. when the focus of your school is money, and martial arts is the side note, this is mcdojo, you cannot clean this up.
4. not every martial arts teacher is going to define “success” by how much money he puts in his bank. some of us, define by how much fear our boys put into the other fighters on the floor. and many of these schools are not broke. they aint rich, but they are far from broke.
5. many of the things that means success in a traditional school will not mean success in a commercial school. many of the things that make success in a commercial school will not make success in a traditional school. you cannot treat the two schools the same way, and you cannot act like success in each one is the same, and you really cannot act like they are equal when it comes to martial arts. some schools are for warriors, some are for the masses. and so what if the warriors laugh at you for your martial arts? dont you laugh at them because they dont make much money?
A couple quick thoughts from above. Certainly you can be an instructor as a not-for-profit. That commendable and fine. That wasn’t the question, the question was the “McDojo” thing.
Anyway. What’s the order of priority?
Well in strictly business terms Peter Drucker said the purpose of any business is to get and keep a customer.
How do you prioritize? Start with the “keep a customer” in other words create a program that will create “raging “thunder lizard” evangelists” (Love that term borrowed with credit from Guy Kawasaki.)
Student retention requires sincere concern for the student. Quality instructional technique. A valuable curriculum. And, producing the promised results in the majority of students.
Unfortunately some otherwise sincere martial arts enthusiasts define McDojo’s as school’s that have developed motivating teaching styles and a retention oriented curriculum. Few “amateur” teachers (part-time, non-professional) have extensively studied teaching methodology, educational psychology, human relations, leadership, and human relations skills.
Just because you are rough and tough, or require training for 12 years to get a Black Belt, or have students spar at white belt or some other thing does not mean you are teaching quality martial arts and producing quality Black Belts.
And, nothing personal Joe but:
“I hear a lot of denial in these posts. I’m sorry but once you inject money into the equation the true spirit of the martial art is lost. You can rationalize it all you want. But the martial art as a “profession” is absurd and down right deceitful. A true master teaches a student the art because he wants to with minimal compensation. Period. Paragraph. Furthermore, that compensation is really nothing more than the representation of a students will to learn. This does not apply to the average person duped into signing up for or staying in a school that is for profit at any level.”
This is just ridiculous.
A Martial Arts Teacher is an educator. Some good, some bad. In higher education Harvard is widely recognized as the (or, one of the) leading institution in the United States. In part because they have both the largest endowment and the highest quality and best paid professors.
By the way they also have some of the “toughest” curriculum and highest graduation rate to their equivalent of a Black Belt (ie. BA) 97% achieve after 4 years.
I’ve recently meet with many “Old Master’s” some have affected 1,000′s of students and passed on life-changing value to their students by focusing on their school as a real educational institution (read business), others had a MUCH more limited influence due to spending 40-60 hours a week doing something else to make a living and therefore never truely developing Mastery in Teaching and never developing much of a following.
The other principle described by Drucker -Create a Customer.
Frankly, it’s impossible to be a “Leader” with no followers. It’s imperative that anyone who believes in their curriculum and their school to share it with their community. That takes time, money, and expertise.
Ultimately, many talented athletes never become quality teachers.
Some who become quality teachers (with sincere concern for their students) fail to figure out how to market their school and therefore impact few lives and often close their school due to the failure to attract an adequate following.
Stephen Oliver, MBA
8th Degree Black Belt.
CEO – National Association of Professional Martial Artists (NAPMA)
Publisher – Martial Arts Professional Magazine
Founder/CEO – Mile High Karate
Mr. Oliver,
I have to agree with your statement “A Martial Arts Teacher is an educator. Some good, some bad. In higher education Harvard is widely recognized as the (or, one of the) leading institution in the United States.”
It is exactly what I tell people (not clients or prospects, but colleagues) that say ‘wow, you charge a lot for Karate lessons’…
My response.
You are paying for my knowledge, not my accomplishments. I just so happened to also gain knowledge through my accomplishments.
In addition, a professor – at ANY higher education university – needs what to teach? A Ph.D… right? Plus, these professors are being paid very well too, right? The one’s with experience can easily pull in 6 figures.
So… now the next question is ‘how long does it take to receive a Ph.D?’
- Four years for undergrad. (1st Dan in most styles)
- Two years for Masters. (2nd Dan in some styles)
- And two to four years for Ph.D – depending on field (2nd or 3rd Dan in other styles).
That’s about 8-10 years of academia this person has spent educating their life. In order to better themselves against others, and be an experienced and knowledgeable TEACHER.
Now, for my colleagues that continue to say I ‘charge too much’.
RESPONSE: I have a Ph.D in the Martial Arts – specifically Wado Karate. I’ve been training for nearly 19 years. So why shouldn’t I charge what I’m worth. If going to Harvard means I will get the best education possibly in the country, with the best professors, than training at my school is equivalent.
So, remember… Students are paying for the value you offer and the knowledge you share. It is up to you, as a business owner, to put a fair price as to what the market can bare, and make sure you give what you sell. If you don’t, you are stealing people’s money.
If someone pays you $200/month for Karate lessons, is that too much? Not if the rest of the market can bare the price.
Last I checked, buying a Lexus essentially says you are getting the best quality car… And they aren’t cheap. Those car payments are around $500/month.
But, I can get a used, American car for cheaper… But… remember the old saying. You get what you pay for. Remember our 1st car in High School?
My parting words…
School Owners – ask yourself. Are you a Lexus or Ford Pinto?
If you’re a Lexus, you better be giving High Value and Service at all times.
If you’re a Pinto…
Javier Lozano, Jr.
3rd Dan – Wado Ryu Karate
In reply to Joes post (quoted below):
“I hear a lot of denial in these posts. I’m sorry but once you inject money into the equation the true spirit of the martial art is lost. You can rationalize it all you want. But the martial art as a “profession” is absurd and down right deceitful. A true master teaches a student the art because he wants to with minimal compensation. Period. Paragraph. Furthermore, that compensation is really nothing more than the representation of a students will to learn. This does not apply to the average person duped into signing up for or staying in a school that is for profit at any level.
The motivation for the teacher is teaching, and not doing it as just a vocation or even avocation.
How this relates to the realities today is a true conundrum. Again, I regard the true spirit of the martial arts is lost.”
What is money, JOE, it is an instrument used for debt. In the old days, Master’s were paid with, livestock, cleaning the school, going to the store and picking up food for the master. Whatever was considered a fair trade for services rendered sound familiar.
So nowadays, we have this instrument called the dollar bill here in the United States and as such this is the preferred currency of trade for services rendered.
I too started training at age four, and have over 35 years invested in my martial arts training. Let’s put that into Harvard Law, or Harvard Medical Terms. Does what I teach have any less value than these students who graduate? I don’t think so, I have educated students in changing their lifestyle habits, I have changed their way of thinking about exercise, fitness and nutrition.
So Harvard costs about $45,000 semester, approximately, so why shouldn’t I be able to charge appropriately for my knowledge when it helps someone who has trouble focusing, anger issues, low self-esteem, etc….
Now this person, has a good body image, can focus, is more disciplined in life, work, home. What is this worth???????
So what if he drives a Mercedes did that instructor not pay his/her dues, in time invested in something he/she loves?
I understand part-time instructors, don’t get me wrong, but how many people could you help if you had more business sense and weren’t so blinded by the “monk like living in poverty” dogma that has permeated this profession by the the “holier than thou” instructors.
Let’s look at Bruce Lee, he charged accordingly to his knowledge and who he was teaching as others have before him. Was Bruce a McDojo???? He taught for money, so he could provide for his wife and son.
Just my two cents worth, as I am so tired of hearing this “old hermit living in a cave mentality”.
Thank You,
Forgive Me If I have Offended You, I just want to reiterate how much you benefit society by having full-time schools as opposed to part-time hobbies.
Master Chris Yi
It’s interesting to consider that back, back, back in feudal Japan, students paid teachers per technique. This was a completely acceptable practice. It’s also curious to me how different martial arts have different cultures around the money. For instance, jiu-jitsu schools charge much more than aikido schools and in aikido circles, paying jiu-jitsu rates would be considered McDojo-ish. Maybe “arts” is the key word here. Artists of all genre have rules about selling out, going mainstream, and so forth. Personally, I pay my lawyer and accountant too much money and they don’t give me even a tenth of a percent the knowledge, joy, community that I find in the Dojo. Why shouldn’t my teacher be well compensated for his life-long dedication?
As a student at a martial arts school I like very much (I wouldn’t call it a McDojo), rather than a school owner, I’d like to throw my 2 cents in:
1) A business basic: sometimes people like McDonalds… and perhaps McDojos too. McDonald’s is unhealthy as hell but damn it sometimes you want to indulge. If a McDojo won’t produce the next UFC champ but will get a student motivated, up off the couch and participating – even if at a minor level – that could be just what that student wants and needs. And could be better for the student than the alternative of staying on the couch.
2) Re: deceptive practices: if we are talking deceptive practices: promising more than can be delivered, crap contracts etc: that’s crap but again, I’d have to put my faith in the student. Seems like most people have a pretty low tolerance for being taken advantage of. And if that is your business model I wouldn’t expect it to last very long. Word can spread fast.
3) On one side this debate sounds so snobbish. “Schools that sell out and target the masses are crap!” Oh boo hoo. If they are providing a service that students happily are paying for then why would you deny a student their right to put their $ where they want?
But on the other hand I do appreciate that there are school owners, such as yourselves and others, who are having this debate. I hear it from my instructor as well. I’m glad that there are school owners who value quality and care about what their students learn — and are passionate enough to raise hell when they see others being deceptive.
Just remember that bettering yourself physically and mentally can be done in all kinds of ways and by all kinds of degrees.
There seems to be a lot of generic pooling and mass prejudice against successful schools here.
There seems bitternes that if a schools a success then its a mcdojo!
Surely the only list that matters is one that asks questions such as quality of tuition/ instructors and quality of content.
If you truly believe (and be honest with yourself and ask the difficult questions like are YOU REALLY as good as your competition- in fact go further- as good as it EVER could POSSIBLY be) that you are offering an outstanding service.
Then you can sleep sound at night knowing your members are likely to be very gratefull for the opportunity to train with you.
Perhaps people who complain so much should concentrate on their own growth rather than pulling others down – surely this is the most productive way for standards to increase and if the “so called mcdojo” is poor then they will be found wanting!
I am based in the Uk and whilst being involved with professional sport for 15 years i only trained in martial arts for myself. Recently business opportunities have seen me move into this environment. After extensive research i have seen many great things from clubs that would be labled mcdojo’s
what i feel is most important though is – If you are going to model succesfull plans and innitiatives then insure you have the expertise and qualifications to administer the program/ ideas effectivly or it will always be a poor second (this in my mind is a mcdojo) and you dont need to be in a swanky new club to fall here, a non for profit village hall will fit the bill just as effectivly!
Lastly to the people who ALWAYS complain about “mcdojos” are you settling for less than you deserve you to could have an outstanding profit making club you dont have to sacrifice your values just believe and be positive about improving yourself not disabling others
Good Luck
Aaron
The McDojo is concept is the largest self defeating belief system I, have ever seen. The belief that are a saleout if you have a Financial School is absolutely absurd. Lets look at another belief system that is opposite of the Mc Dojo Belief. What would make a Martial Art school owner belive in the McDojo Belief? His/Her Instructor believed it was wrong and not right for the Martial Arts. Their Instructor was probably told that by their Instructor and so on down the line. That belief also stems from the Instructor not having the Business Knowledge to make a real Successful School. So it is better to pull others down then to pull yourself up.
In the new Business model coming up in the Martial ARTS you better acquire the skills needed for a successful school or you will be left behind and your art will not with stand the test and time and fade away like the Dinosaurs who did not adapt.
This is a broad assumption that I believe is an unfair generalization. Yes, there are McDojo’s out there.
But is it wrong for someone to devote their entire lives to being a martial artist? It would only seem appropriate that the Master/Instructor would be able to make a living off a school if they are investing 70+ hours a week in the process. That doesn’t leave a lot of space for working a day job or raising a family. Only when the quality of instruction is sacrificed in order to make a profit does a school really qualify under such a category.
As long as you are offering a genuine quality service at a fair price, there is no shame in making profit to make your mortgage or feed your kids.
I don’t understand the logic of people that say we should give away our time and energy for free. If you have trained and studied hard for 20 years to achieve something many never will, why wouldn’t you charge for your time to pass these valuable skills on? Why does the fact that i am a martial arts instructor mean that my time should be any less valuable than that of say a school teacher? In fact, as nobody has the same skills as me for miles around can i not justify charging more?
I run a full time martial are centre and while i don’t subscribe to all so called ‘McDojo’ business practices i think some are essential to make sure your are around to pass on your knowledge tomorrow, next week, next year. I find it strange that people some instructors would ridicule other for marketing their services. Why it is a bad thing to pass your skills on to more people rather than less? The fact that you are good at selling what you do has zero affect on how good your martial arts is.
The subject of cost for lessons inevitably comes up when the ‘McDojo’ comes in to conversation. As some people that posted previously have already said, this is simply a case of perceived value. If someone values a service more than the competition, they will be willing to pay more for it. If they don’t, they won’t.
Some of you may not subscribe to the same business practises as Mr Oliver but you would be well advised to do your research before writing off all his practises. Although i have never met the guy or even spoken to him, I have read quite a lot of his material and its help me ensure the future of my centre and my students.
I guess when it comes down to the money side of things you have two choices:-
A. You charge peanuts for you service and your students automatically value your service accordingly. You don’t make any money and thus can’t afford to invest in yourself, your staff or your equipment. Without a full time wage you are never going to have the time to dedicate to martial arts the same as someone who is full time.
B. You charge what you are worth and let the market decided. With the extra funds you can train yourself improving your martial arts and business skills. With a full time salary you can then invest more time and effort in documenting and refining your procedures and making sure everything is done professionally, thus giving a better service to the customers. You have time and money to invest in your staff, equipment and surroundings ensuring that the customer gets the best service you can provide.
I think the issue here isn’t “is it a McDojo if it makes a profit?” But rather, “what defines a McDojo?” The Dojo that I attend has been in operation for over 25 years and continually struggles to remain financially viable.
The concept of a McDojo is, I believe, the idea that a person or school commoditizes the Martial Arts and in so doing, offers a watered down version that purports itself to be high quality. To continue the fast-food analogy; A fast food or chain restaurant gives everyone the same selection of meals in the same way, with little deviation. You know what you are going to get when you walk in the door and it’s your own fault if you expect to get something other than what they offer. In opposition is the small “mom&pop” restaurant or the large gourmet restaurant that emphasizes quality and the “art” of cooking and the dining experience. Very few Mom&Pop restaurants make it, in the long term, and there never have been many of the large gourmet restaurants. You will also never get the quality and experience you get at the Mom&Pop or the Gourmet restaurant that you will at a fast food or chain restaurant. Fast Food restaurants and Chains, on the whole, are also very profitable – at least for the franchiser – where as Mom&Pops struggle to get by. This doesn’t mean that the McRestaurant doesn’t have integrity, as long as people know what they are getting – commoditized food and a generic, non-personalized, watered down experience. The integrity issue comes in when a “Wendy’s” tries to make it’s clients think they are getting a high quality, personalized, gourmet experience.
The central problem here centers around the primary motivation for operating a school.If the school is operted as a business for profit,then the most important thing for the survival of the business is to attract and maintain students,which can run contrary to the true spirit of martial arts training as hard training is going to involve hard,full contact sparring or randori and full contact tourneys,which is guaranteed to lead to injuries,which is counter productive to recruitment and retention.The solution is to implement the model used by USA judo;operate your dojo as a non-profit organization!
While it’s true that you’ll never get rich this way,you can remain true to preserving the integrity of the art you love without compromising its standards.One of the hallmarks of judo is that it is practiced full on in randori and shia,and though it takes many years to become proficient and earn a shodan,you can be confident that you are acquiring real skills that are effective real time in the real world.The same can be said for wrestling and boxing-you practice exactly the way you would fight against fully resisting opponents.If you can’t afford to open a dojo right away,make a deal with the local ymca or boys club to get started.At least you’ll be teaching something real that will allow you to sleep well at night!
Well Said!
I think you’ve sort on the issue: maintaining the spirit of the Art while making money is a razors edge and comes fraught with issues to destroy your profit potential. Do you turn away a dedicated, talented, passionate student because they are out of work and can’t pay? Do you allow an aggressive, selfish student to continue to train and study because they pay well? My answer to both is “no!”
To carry this further, do you set people up with long term contracts that are binding, knowing that they have to pay but will stop coming to class (the health club model)? Do you issue promotions to students because they’ve paid well and attended class but don’t have skills? Do you water down the Art so that more people advance (while portraying this as quality instruction)? All of these lack integrity and IMO are characteristic of a McDojo.
If you care about your students, if you spend your own time thinking about how to improve them, their health and their life, then you are in little danger of being Mc anything. If you worry about your bottom line first then you are already there. It is easier to provide a high quality education for your students if you can afford to train yourself. Many instructors stop training seriously and at that time their progression and their art lose their connection with the present. Grand Master Pan used to tell me to use my sleep time if my days where to full to train 6-8 hrs per day. I have 6 children of my own 10 and under, I have a farm, and I have a TCM practice aside from my school and I still find time to think about the individual needs of all my students, patients, children, my wife, and Train Myself. Remember Everyone always has more than they feel they can handle, If we process and grow through all those things then we are unique, not big box or Mc anything. Find and Define do not be Defined
I have read the article and subsequent posts and enjoyed reading all the different viewpoints with great interest. I am not sure whether I am classed as a McDojo or not. I am an instructor of an after-school club in England. I just have the one school at the moment but the school is growing so well at the moment that I am trying to figure out a way to accommodate my students. We are bursting at the seams. I don’t make any money myself from what I get in fees, although I am classed legally as a sole trader (US: sole propieter). Once I started taking enough money to have to declare the income for taxes, it was easier for me to register as a sole trader because in order to establish the school as a non-profit in the UK, I would need a commitee or board of trustees. Despite advertising with parents, at the school and in the community, I only had one person who wanted to volunteer to be a trustee. Meanwhile, I had to do the books and declare income to the Inland Revenue. I work part-time as a Sales Associate in a large department store for minimum wage. My career background is in youth work but government cuts have meant that the work in this sector has dried up. Teaching is a joy although, I do so reluctantly. I am a reluctant teacher because I still feel like I am a student myself, even after 24 years of training. I teach for the some of the same reasons I did youth work. It is a calling. The former instructor wanted to close the club but I wanted to keep it open. It provides an alternative to some of the less desirable activities these young people could be doing instead. Although everything I currently make is going straight back into the club, it would be nice to not have to worry about making ends meet at the end of the month and whether I can pay the bills. My first priority are my students and operating a good club that provides quality instruction and a positive experience for my students. Unfortunatly, my second priority has to be making enough money to stay open and pay the bills. If I don’t do that my students won’t have anywhere to come and train and I won’t have the pleasure of sharing my knowledge. I have no desire to get rich off my students or my ‘business’ but it would be nice to make enough make a modest living. As I say, I don’t make a living from the school income currently because my first priority is to develop a better school. At them moment I don’t have much in the way of equipment and as said earlier, I would like to find a larger or additional venue that will meet our needs. I’m not sure if any of this makes me a McDojo. Do I want to make a living from what I love doing, which is teaching and youth work? Yes! Do I make a profit from my school. Yes! Am I a for-profit school? Yes! Do I keep any of the profits for myself? No! Do I focus on teaching children and young people? Yes! (I am an after-school club invited by the school to teach an alternative to regular school sport). Am I adverse to teaching adults? No! (Most schools around this area are struggling to attract adults to traditional karate). Do I give black belts to children? Yes and No. One or two children that I have taught have gone on to attain the black belt but I didn’t test or award them for these grades, my association, the Karate Union of Great Britain (the late Sensei Enoeda’s association) did. I do not assess any of my students for rank promotion, a senior in my association does this. Do I agree with this? Yes and No. I like the idea of external examinations: It provides some accountability and checks & balances to the system but I don’t agree that on certain selected people are allowed to be examiners. I think all black belts who undertake some training to be an examination instructor should be allowed to assess students fo rank promotion. Anyway, its a very intersting subject and I don’t know if any of this makes sense. I don’t think non-profit schools or voluntary instructors are bad (I am a volunteer instructor at other schools in the area). Most schools in the UK are amateur sports clubs or set up in a voluntary/non-profit capacity. I also don’t think for-profit schools or professional full-time or part-time instructors are bad either, as they are often painted to be here in the UK. It’s all horses for courses. My situation kind of pushed me into the position of devoting a significant portion of my time to teaching and my dire employment situation also meant that I was forced to try and find alternative sources of income. I decided to try and make a living off the skills that I had (youth work and martial arts) and am trying to combine them. I don’t make enough to pay myself yet but I don’t see anything wrong with taking an income from my school profits once I am able to.
My name is Jose’ Angarita 2nd. I am currently a 3rd Dan in the art of Taekwon-do. I have a small club that I have opened a few months ago in the Memphis, Tennessee area. I believe the question is: What is a Mcdojo? Here is my answer. A Mcdojo is a place that is not interested in the needs of the students. A martial arts school is a place that is interested in the needs of its students. I state the words students carefully because to have a school there must be teachers and students. To have a businees that has only its financial needs as its bottom line and its only reason for being open is not a school, but a business. Here is my next answer. Can a school maintian its integrity as a school and still be a for profit business. Yes, it can. How? By making sure that what is taught in the school is a quality program that gives the student a reason to keep coming back after the soreness in the legs, arms and other body parts begin. How does the instructor do that? By meeting the students needs. Even if those needs change over time. If you are an instructor like I am, and you have a school but are not sure if you have a good program ask yourself this. Does my cirriculum meet my students needs? If the answer is yes then you have a quality program and should charge whatever you feel you are worth. Thank you for this great website and this opprtunity to give my thoughts.
Mr. Jose’ Angarita 2nd
Owner Angaritas Taekwon-do
I have been teaching karate for thirty years and have seen a lot of good schools as well as many McDojos. I have read many of the previous posts and am amazed by all the strong, but different opinions on the subject.
I have been teaching full time for eleven years, and yes, this is how I make a living. It saddens me to think that adults and children who don’t have the money to attend classes would be denied by the greed of a martial arts instructor, but it sounds like that is the case for some. I charge a fair amount, and I am well compensated, but there are many of my students who earn a lot more, and many more who earn a lot less. I clearly state in my written policy that no one will be turned away because of their finances.
I have calls from parents who are locked into contracts at competitor’s schools. Some are crying because they can’t afford the payments. I offer to let them come to my school for free until their contract runs out.
Instructors who run Mcdojos can attempt to justify their ways, but their character is so lacking that their judgement is impaired.
Just for the record, I operate the largest school in the city. I don’t give black belts to children, I have no contracts, and most of my students will study at least five to eight years before they will be considered for black belt. And what will the black belt cost them? $50.00 for a deluxe belt that they will wear around their waist.
Integrity first…at least then you can enjoy your earnings, and you won’t have to get defensive when you hear the word “McDojo”.
I have seen a very different side of my dearly beloved martial arts than I am used to today in an even more intimate setting than usual, straight from the business owners. I feel I must comment.
First things first, I am aware that finding a profit saturated market and seizing the opportunities are nothing new, and I have absolutely nothing against this, even in a martial arts setting. In a way it’s now the way my homeland of modern capitalist America runs, also in many other settings than a dojo. I accept this, even concerning the beautiful art form that is martial arts. If you’re teaching self-defense and martial arts effectively, you probably deserve the profits 100%. Simple as that.
Here’s a fun fact. Spiritual and mental conditioning in martial arts is put in place to make the martial art as effective as possible, allowing one to grow as they learn the art. Nowadays in what I see being referred to as “modern martial arts,” taking one or two aspects of traditional martial arts and teaching a class with these things first in mind qualifies a weight loss/self-esteem/life coaching center as a full fledged martial arts dojo, simply because it technically touches on things that have to do with martial arts. I get it. It’s marketing genius. Martial arts + self defense = an extremely good way to sell things one could learn reading a short article on the internet that almost anyone could teach at extremely high rates with contracts and fees, with some fancy coordinated movements thrown in to further authenticate (this does not have to apply to your business). What an excellent way to turn profits.
More confidence and self esteem! A less obese populace! Kids exercising! These are good things that merit teaching a class for in many individuals. But these things are not self-defense, although they are commonly sold promising it.
For the safety of these “dojos” students, their head of business should think twice about selling sugar-coated exercise programs as self defense classes. These kids and even some adults and teenagers aren’t even aware they’re not in a traditional martial arts dojo learning how to properly defend themselves, when they’re really in an exercise center/life coach clinic marketed as one. What if one of their clients got into a violent confrontation, armed with nothing but false confidence (and possibly 5 pounds lighter)? No contact sparring, “it doesn’t have to hurt” marketing ploys aimed at parents or the faint hearted, and these martial arts weight loss centers using them have already hurt enough people thinking they paid to learn a self defense system, and will continue to do so until it stops.
I beg of these strictly for-profit McDojo businesses, please sell your product for what it is before even more people get hurt.
I am 100% open to discussion and am not pointing any fingers. I’d probably be willing to dig up any articles I’ve read over the years of ineffective self-defense studios and their effect. Everyone here sure seems to be just fine in their position regarding their dojos. This is to outline McDojos at their worst. Have a good one!
1st dan Taekwondo
3rd kyu Kenpo Karate
Your student, S.S.
The answer, as always, is balance.
The school I attend feels tenuous and I was worried that it could go broke because it does not have enough students. Then the Sensei did an Internet offer that brought in some more students and it feels like it the school is on a more solid footing.
The question is not should schools be commercial, for they must be, but rather how much is enough to ensure the survival of the school and the art.
Too much “black & white” thinking.
Which is more important: breathing IN, or breathing OUT? You can not do one without the other for very long!
Western thinking tends to break things down into component parts to aid in understanding, but to understand the parts is not necessarily to understand a system at work. The circulatory system is more than just the heart and arteries!
To be able to teach, one must have resources. A location. Perhaps tools or aids that enable better and faster learning. On the other hand, some tools are simply how you use fellow students (hopefully carefully).
Altruistic and misconceptions of traditional ideaologies aside, the more students you have the more resources you will likely be able to make available to them all. However, the more difficult managing it all becomes.
Thusly, this is a self-balancing system. If you can’t continue to provide the benefits as you should be, then you will lose students until they are down to a number you can manage. That number might be zero, by the way. Notice the word “manage”; it refers to the business side AND the teaching, working together for the benefit of the ART, the SCHOOL, and the STUDENTS.
Focus on running your school like a GOOD business, and stop using the word business like you should have your mouth washed out with soap! It is about running your school WISELY,and utilizing resources well without squandering or wasting them. Efficiency should be a concept embraced by all instructors. The only question should be “how much should I be allowed to profit from my students?”
I suggest that if your students are well trained that they will not look at your fees as an expense, but rather as an opportunity to reinvest in themselves. The idea should be that for every dollar they pay to you, they get that same dollar back, somehow, and maybe a little more.
If that is happening then you aren’t actually costing them anything at all!
And if it isn’t happening like that then you aren’t doing it right, and you need to spend some time thinking about how you can change that. Otherwise you WILL feel guilty for charging any amount, regardless of how little.
i teach kyokushin karate and have done for a number of years, i do it for free, dont accept a penny, we have our dojo in the municipel sports hall,, which we use for free, our village is 2500 people and i have 65 students. the student just pay for membership in the budo assosiaion which includes insurance, it took me 12 years of hard work to get my shodan from my old teacher,(since retired) osu